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I started this discussion on another forum where the usual bigots who cannot accept me as being Taiwanese post.

by sandman » Wed May 08, 2013 14:09

Neither blackcrusader nor Kal El Bismarck are Taiwanese. One is an Aussie, the other is a Saffa. They are ROC citizens. So that analogy doesn't work at all. Although I have no idea how to deal with riled-up people of either country, either. Cold steel. They don't like it up 'em.

By what definition do you make that (erroneous imo) assertion? Is Poagao also not Taiwanese? What about your son? Your wife? How about her parents, grandparents etc? For that matter, how about Ang Lee, Ma Ying Jiu and Jeremy Lin? What exactly is your dubious definition of "a Taiwanese"?

sandman wrote:
One is an Aussie, the other is a Saffa.

ZERO out of two there, Man of Sand. Blackcrusader, AFAIK, is a dual citizen and has both Taiwan and Aussie citizenship but he only travels on his Taiwan passport and only ever identifies himself and being Taiwanese. As for myself, I am not South African. Or do you have a different definition of "a South African" from myself, and indeed the South African government? Please pray tell, how am I a South African?

sandman wrote:
They are ROC citizens.

So, ROC citizens/Taiwanese citizens aren't Taiwanese? American citizens aren't American? But people who aren't South African citizens are South Africans? How exactly does that work? I'm really interested in seeing if you're going to give an intelligent response to my questions above, or whether you were just trolling or something. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

My son is half-Taiwanese. My wife and in-laws are full Taiwanese. Grandparents also Taiwanese. As are the great and great-grandparents. After that we're looking at Pingpu aborigines. Them others I have no idea. You can call yourselves Taiwanese if you want, of course. More power to you. Me personally, I'm from Moldovian Royal stock, back in the 1300s. I 'aint no goddamn Russkie, though.

For me personally, changing your passport is a political move. Doesn't change who you are, in my view. Sorry. Your kid is Taiwanese. So is mine. If I ever decide to change my passport for a Taiwanese one, I will not consider myself Taiwanese, either. I suspect VERY strongly that it also doesn't change the views of your newfound countrymen as to who you are, either. YMMV, of course.

Sandy, how is the boy only half Taiwanese? Isn't he full Taiwanese and full Scottish, albeit a dual citizen?
If I am not full Taiwanese, how is your wife or any of her relations full Taiwanese? Somewhere along the line one of them immigrated here, unless (and I admit, I don't know anything about her ancestry) they're full on Aboriginals. Or is it a matter of how long ago the family moved here? Is being a "real" Taiwanese a matter of having or not having an epicanthic fold, black hair and dark brown eyes?

Which brings me back to how in the world am I South African? Sure, I was born there, but I know many Saffas that were born in Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia), Malawi, Mozambique or Swaziland (all white, some black), but none of them are Zimbabwean, Malawian, Mozambican or Swazi. They're all South African.
My father was born in England, his father in Scotland. Why am I considered by you as a South African, but not English or Scottish instead of Taiwanese? I do not hold South African or British citizenship (I do not have dual citizenship, only Taiwanese citizenship), I do not have a South African or British passport. I do imagine in some way I would qualify for both, but in order to actually get either would require a sacrifice in time and finances that I'm unwilling to make and which would be much more steep and difficult than when I acquired Taiwanese citizenship. So even on that measure I'm more Taiwanese than British or South African as it was easier to get a Taiwanese passport than either of the other two would be.

As to the others I mentioned:
1. Ma Ying Jiu - Born in a foreign country, Hong Kong. So why is he our president and considered Taiwanese? Isn't he a Hong Konger?
2. Ang Lee - Born in Tainan, but he's a naturalized American and his parents immigrated from China. How is he considered Taiwanese and I'm not? As he has dual citizenship, which I don't, and we both have foreign born parents.
3. Jeremy Lin - Interesting case. Born and raised in the US, no Taiwanese citizenship, ID or household registration, and he can't speak Chinese or Taiwanese (well, he can say a few grammatically shite words and sentences). But he's considered Taiwanese by many.

Why this double standard? Is it because I'm white? That would be ironic as in South Africa the majority also thinks that makes you "not a real South African". Is it that I was born elsewhere (but then why are Jeremy Lin and Ma Ying Jiu considered Taiwanese)? Is it because I'm not famous or ethnic Han (in which case, what about the Aboriginals, SE Asian immigrants, "half foreign" kids etc)?
And most odd of all, why is it that in the last two years only seven people have voiced the opinion that I'm not really Taiwanese but still South African (even though I don't hold their citizenship, passport and wouldn't be able to get any help from their consular office, and it would take years and international relocation to get it), yet that seven were:
1. Six foreigners, yourself included. Five of which were angry South Africans, one of which called me a race traitor.
2. One was a Taiwanese woman who is a naturalized New Zealander. She, at first, had no problems with it, but when she lost an argument on an aspect of local culture lashed out with, "You're not a real Taiwanese anyway." Kind of like a Southern hick who loses an intellectual discussion with a black guy and lashes out by calling him a slave or a nigger to vent his frustration and anger, which is then just basically showing how that person is inherently a racist and not to be taken seriously anyway.

So, I asked:

Bismarck wrote:
What exactly is your dubious definition of "a Taiwanese"?

As for myself, I am not South African. Or do you have a different definition of "a South African" from myself, and indeed the South African government? Please pray tell, how am I a South African?

Because (and as I said before, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt), in my experience, people who insist I'm not really Taiwanese and/or I'm actually South African are either:
1. Racist - Me not being ethnic Han/Asian
2. Ignorant - Forgetting that apart from less than 1 million Aboriginals, everyone here is an immigrant, only the time of entry differs.
3. Fearful/Jealous - Because they can't or won't do what is necessary to immigrate (largely Saffas fall into this category, although they're also likely partly 1 and/or 2 above)
4. Trying to get a rise out of me.

OK. You're as Taiwanese as blackcrusader. How's that?
It's just the nature of the beast. My folks, for example, have lived for 40 years in the highlands. But they weren't born there, so they're STILL regarded as "white settlers." Its just a bit of fun. Fact is, nobody gives a shit except you and the government. Your friends and family know you've changed your passport. Everyone else regards you as a foreigner. At least you don't (I hope) go around making a laughing stock of yourself by proffering your local ID card at every opportunity! And no, my kid isn't "full Scottish" or "full Taiwanese." He's a half-caste.

Here's another odd one. This weekend the foreigners are holding some beach olympics thingy, although Taiwanese are welcome to participate. They're all divided into four teams:
Europe
North America
South Africa
Asia Pacific (Rest of the world)

The Saffas keep inviting me on FB to join their team. Odd, as I'm not actually friends with any of them, and I'm not South African. All my mates at this event are Kiwis. Shouldn't I be on the Asia Pacific team?

If I qualified for the 2016 Olympics in ping pong or whatever, would I have to compete for Chinese Taipei or South Africa? I can guarantee you this, if I decided to represent SA, the first one to object would be the SA government and the SA Olympic Committee.

So IRL (away from fantasy land), why do these fucktards still want me to join their silly little team? I'm not a citizen of their sorry country, I'm not South African (for the record, the only thing I hate more than being called South African, is being mistakenly called an Afrikaner), none of them are even my friends.
But knowing how they (South Africans) are, instead of joining my mates in the Asia Pacific group, I'll either not go, or just go hang out at the beach with my son and not participate.
Honestly, I'm seriously considering moving to Kaohsiung. It's no fun wearing an All Black jersey and being hurled drunken abuse at by Sef Efrikens (who only, barely, know me in passing) when I'm just trying to enjoy a rugby game and a beer with my mates.

So please. Call me white, if you have to. European, if you must (I prefer Eurasian). But don't call me a South African. Much obliged. I'm Taiwanese.

sandman wrote:
It's just the nature of the beast. My folks, for example, have lived for 40 years in the highlands. But they weren't born there, so they're STILL regarded as "white settlers." Its just a bit of fun. Fact is, nobody gives a shit except you and the government. Your friends and family know you've changed your passport.
Indeed. But I have to wonder why it seems to be such a big deal for certain people, like it's somehow a betrayal.

sandman wrote: Everyone else regards you as a foreigner.

Oh, I'm under no illusion there. Sure, I'm white, and at face value strangers will assume I'm a foreigner. That's ok. At face value, I often assume some people are Filipinoes or Aborigine. Looks can be deceiving, but I'm not going to kid myself about what I look like to strangers.

sandman wrote: At least you don't (I hope) go around making a laughing stock of yourself by proffering your local ID card at every opportunity!

Only when asked, like when I open a bank account or whatever else it's actually needed for. Same for blackcrusader. It sure does smooth things along, and I'll tell you, those folks don't give a toss if you're white or whatever. It makes their lives easier if you have one, and that's the bottom line for them.

sandman wrote:And no, my kid isn't "full Scottish" or "full Taiwanese." He's a half-caste.

You see, and folks get upset when I call my kid an Abo.

Bis...get a tattoo...

Or maybe even one of these......no wait...you're not an American...never mind on this one.

I still do not get snadman's take on it. Half-caste? Mongrel? if your parents do a semi-decent job on you, you stand with both feet in both world, and you are comfortable both places. At least my 2 oldest kids are

"To a nation you belong, if you consider yourself part thereof", if you have the papers, you consider yourself Taiwanese, you are Taiwanese, it's as simple as that.

Some might call you a "new" taiwanese, but whatever... it's the word Taiwanese that counts.

Much like many of snadman's rants, his attempt to tell someone they aren't a citizen of their own country is absurd and irrational. He seemingly subscribes to an outmoded, racist view of nationality, which holds that one must be a member of a particular ethnic group in order to call themselves a member of that society. Not ethnically Han? Then you can NEVER be Taiwanese, regardless of your passport (hmm...that kind of screws the abos, then). Your kids, and his, are mere "half-castes" as well, 'cuz he sez so. Of course, he fails to consistently apply this standard, as he elsewhere argues that his buddy Zain Dean is a Scot, and nothing else, despite his Indian heritage-- and how dare local newspapers mention this ethnic heritage in their coverage of his vehicular manslaughter trial? Not sure what his issue is with white westerners who have chosen Taiwanese nationality. Locals are increasingly coming around to the reality that some whities have lived here a long time,and are permanent members of society here. Sure, there are racists. But do you let such people decide your identity for you? If you hold a nation's citizenship, you belong to that nation. Seems simple to me.

Yes but bigots like Sandman are all too keen to point out that he hates the language here so refuses to learn it, hates the culture, hates the people,
hates the country etc etc.

I'm Taiwanese, have been for many years but bigots like sandman are always there to tell you otherwise.