ZAIN DEAN CONVICTED KILLER ON THE LAM

[MAOMAN]

Mr He wrote: General interest. Seeing a line of trained seals following... What? All those mindless followers... And now? Silence. Shame?

Lots of interest when people could claim that he had been convicted by a kangaroo court. Now it seems not to be the case, and not a word.

Guys just wanting their old posts sinking back in the murky slime they should never have appeared from.

As Admin of Moronosa I'll bite. Please point out ZD's mindless followers on flob or ease, with a link to specific posts, please. I've never claimed to be a friend of ZDs, and I have no comment (and never did) on his guilt or innocence. Having attended two of his court appearances, I stated, and still believe, that his trial was seriously flawed. Can you concede the possibility, just the possibility, that ZD is guilty as sin AND the legal system is imperfect? I see far more mindlessness coming from people who have very little knowledge of the case, never attended even one court appearance, yet are more than happy to speculate as to what happened and parrot other uninformed opinions. How many court appearances did you attend, just out of curiosity? You weren't present at any of the ones I witnessed.

And your lousy attempt to besmirch jp, saying he is ZD's "friend" would be laughable if it weren't so mean-spirited. I don't think they've ever even set foot in the same room.

[REPLICANT]

by toasty » Mon Jun 23, 2014 01:13

maoman wrote: I'll bite.

...and I'll bite back.

maoman wrote: Please point out ZD's mindless followers on sites, with a link to specific posts, please.

You know fine well that the worst posts are archived on that other site you used to admin. Shall I post some of the lies from there? How no one was going to take the case? Evidence was tampered with? How about the personal attacks? The attempts to out users? I had one of your personal friends try to do that to me, claiming I should feel empathy with ZD given that I'm such a heavy drinker, as he put it, as evidenced by how I got hammered at a restaurant he was working at. I could have replied that a) I was far from hammered both times; my wife was with me b) drinking and drunk driving have about as much to do with each other as consensual sex and rape and c) KEY POINT HERE: I left in taxis both times... But, hey, I thought, "why stoop to their level."

maoman wrote: I've never claimed to be a friend of ZDs,

But you do know him. EYE called you out on that years ago. I could see when the wagons were circling and when the attempts to stifle outrage over ZD's actions were starting, so I asked for an honest disclosure of who knew the guy. I give you credit for admitting a relationship with him. However, you have consistently tried to downplay that relationship. Being someone's housemate, you would get to know someone rather well. I think your relationship is much closer than you admit to. I, similarly, think you are much less impartial than you claim.

[b]

maoman wrote: and I have no comment (and never did) on his guilt or innocence.

[/b]


Perhaps, but you heavily suggest at his innocence. If his trial was "flawed" as you put it, what are people to conclude from that? You were also responsible for moderation of the ZD threads on flob during your tenure and you threw the rule book away when it came to ZD's supporters. Supporters could attack anyone who believed him to be guilty, they could post outright lies even and nothing was done.

And if you have "no comment" on his guilt or innocence, why do you so consistently attack and put down those who believe, like the courts do, that he is guilty of his crime?

Having attended two of his court appearances, I stated, and still believe, that his trial was seriously flawed.

Are you a lawyer? Then why do you try to come across as authoritative? The way you word your "appearances," you seem to suggest you were involved in the trial in some way, rather than a mere member of the public gallery. You're not a qualified attorney, here or elsewhere and, given your admitted relationship to the defendant and to those who support him, your opinion should be viewed with suspicion.

But perhaps we should rely on the opinions of the qualified lawyers in this community, those with real legal educations? You know, like Omniloquacious, for example? Oops, no. He's said ZD's guilty more than once. Better not ask him.

Do you know who else would have attended his hearings? The UK rep office. Do they agree with your assessment?

What about all those expat businesses who often help when expats get into trouble here? No help for Dean? Do they think his trials were flawed or not?

maoman wrote: Can you concede the possibility, just the possibility, that ZD is guilty as sin AND the legal system is imperfect?

If he's guilty, and the courts came to the correct decision... what exactly is your point again? :facepalm:

But, hey, he's had two trials, a civil lawsuit and an extradition process in a completely different country. They've ALL gone against him. Are they all flawed? In your expert opinion?

maoman wrote: I see far more mindlessness coming from people who have very little knowledge of the case, never attended even one court appearance, yet are more than happy to speculate as to what happened and parrot other uninformed opinions. How many court appearances did you attend, just out of curiosity? You weren't present at any of the ones I witnessed.

More of that "no comment," but the people who believe ZD is guilty are "mindless." Oh, I see. You want mindless? How about ZD's claim of another video. Want absolutely ridiculous? How about his claim that the Geneva Convention people were looking into his trial.

No, mindless are the people who still cling to fairy tales with no concrete evidence to support them. You'll never see the pro-Dean camp discussing anything more than broad, sweeping generalizations about supposed corruption and media misinformation. What they lack is anything material to show how any of what they say applies to this case at all. Must be true if someone said it though, right?

Why do people have "hard-ons" about this case? To be honest, I didn't originally. Oh, sure, I believed he did it. But it wasn't until sites that claim to represent all of us started showing bias and hypocrisy and started posting bold-faced lies that it started really getting up my arse.

It's about time you just stopped. There is no conspiracy. There is no miscarriage of justice. There's no plot to string up innocent foreigners. There's just a guy who made a terrible error in judgment and an innocent person paid for it with his life (and shame on the person who responded with the non sequitur that innocent people die every day-- show some basic morality!).

You want this to go away? You want to stop widening the schism you've created in the community? Stop it with the "I-have-no-comment-but-anyone-who-thinks-Dean-is-guilty-is-mindless" nonsense.

Oh how Tony wants to say he doesn't know ZD.

He was living with ZD for a long time and also worked at LADO Consultants with him for years. Why doesn't Tony explain to us what happened between Mr A.I. the owner of Lado and Tony and ZD? Ah I bet he doesn't want his close relationship with ZD known too much. Living and working with ZD and having continuous contact with him over the years.

Yes, many skeletons in the closet there Tony. Please do come and tell all. I'd say the you are much closer than you're admitting, too. We all know ZD had his spin advisers trying to attack anyone who made comments that claimed he was guilty. I'd assume they were the same advisers that told ZD to flee Taiwan then were bragging about it on forums that he had gotten away and were applauding that. The same numpties who probably told Chris Churcher he wouldn't do time for selling his passport to ZD. The same numpties that told ZD he would never be brought back to Taiwan as there was no extradition treaty and Taiwan not being in the UN had no chances of getting ZD. The same numpties who were trying to make sure Chris Churchers Identity wasn't known on expat forums. Or of that other DUI runner that got shot. Yeah you know, those ones who try to protect their criminal friends. I don't know anyone who has drug addictions or who is into criminal activities, but Taiwanease moderators and Admin surely do. Sure is a good way to promote a site by getting the first hand posts of an escaped criminal and then bragging about it.

The very same numpties who got the bright idea to have ZD claims his rights were abused under the Geneva Convention under Prisoners of War. lol

And Tony isn't a friend of ZD's, but Tony is happy to announce both on flob and ease that ZD posted the information to him first. Wow. SO Mr Moaman Anthony Van Dyck the friendless, what are your views on your ZD non friend who you admit is guilty but fled Taiwan to escape a jail sentence, then had the gall to use your site to boast about it first?

What about the guy that got killed?

[MAOMAN]

Oh how Tony wants to say he doesn't know ZD. He was living with ZD for a long time and also worked at LADO Consultants. Why doesn't Tony explain to us what happened between Mr A.I. the owner of Lado and Tony and ZD. Ah I bet his close relationship with ZD he doesn't want known too much. Living and working with ZD and having continious contact with him over the years.

yes many skeletons in the closet there Tony. Please do come and tell all. I'd say the you are much closer than your admitting too. We all know ZD had his spin advisors trying to attack anyone who made comments he was guilty. I'd assume they were the same advisers that told ZD to flee Taiwan then were bragging about it on forums that he had gotten away and were applauding that. The same numpties who probably told Chris Churcher he wouldn't do time for selling his passport to ZD. The same numpties that told ZD he would never be brought back to Taiwan as there was no extradition treaty and Taiwan not being in the UN had no chances of getting ZD. The same numpties who were trying to make sure Chris Churchers Identity wasn't known on expat forums. Or of that other DUI runner that got shot. Yeah you know, those ones who try to protect their criminal friends. I don't know anyone who has drug addictions or are into criminal activities but Taiweanese moderators and Admin surely do. Sure isa good way to promote a site by getting the first hand posts of an escaped criminal then bragging about it.

The very same numpties who got the bright idea to have ZD claims his rights were abused under the Geneva Convention under Prisoners of War. lol

And Tony isnt a friend of ZD's but is happy to announce both on flob and ease that ZD posted the information to Tony first. Wow. SO Mr Moaman Anthony Van Dyck the friendless, what are your views on your ZD non friend who you admit is guilty but fled Taiwan to escape a jail sentence than had the gall to use your site to boast about it first?

What about the guy that got killed?

What about the guy who got killed? As I have said before and I "quote myself"

It's not important. Dead is dead

[chewycorns]

Let me offer my two bits.

I don't side with one side or another on this case. Couldn't really give two sharts about it. In retrospect, I think Zain was weak to leave Taiwan, to do it by getting a friend into legal trouble as well, and to fight the original conviction. Had he apologized, not went through the legal appeal process in Taiwan that resulted in a longer sentence, and not fought the system like a spoiled western imperialist , he would have served time and been out for quite a while now. Instead he stuck to his position without compromise, which is very individualist and very Western. That's fine and he's entitled to do exactly that, but don't be surprised if things don't work out your way in an Asian system holding onto such attitudes.

That being said, I think Taiwan often doesn't respect international rulings (e.g., Interpol warrant for Julia Cutie child abduction case that Taiwan authorities didn't respect), so I look at their lobbying against Dean in London as being very selective indeed. However, to have Scotland agree to extradite (after the appeal process has been exhausted in the UK) is nothing short of a coup for Taiwan. Scotland and the UK don't even do this for some Eastern European countries. It has provided Taiwan with international recognition in the legal field. Let me put it this way: the EU, including the UK and Scotland, are built upon a foundation of respect for human rights and the rule of law. Their decision has given legitimacy to Taiwan's legal and judicial system....not all of that is well deserved in my opinion.

In some ways, I disagree with the ruling that "he could get a fair shake in Taiwan." Taiwan's media coverage can be biased against foreigners as can the police and their actions. If it's a Taiwan victim, they'll go through due diligence to the extreme. Foreigners being hurt? Nope. I have heard too many stories from long-term expats in Taiwan about the inaction when it is a foreign victim. For example, let's take the case of the Converse Asia executive whose wife was killed in her house back in Taichung in the late 1990s. Did they ever catch them? She was killed in 1997 in front of her two children in her house in a gated community with private security guards. This international executive stayed in Taiwan for a year afterwards trying to get the government to do something. Complete waste of time. Somehow someone got in with a truck, stole their big TV etc. etc., murdered her, and the guards and security cameras saw nothing. Must have been ghosts. :facepalm: There were suggestions at the time that the security company and guards (all ex-police) were involved in the murder and being protected by the local cops.

Then there was the teacher who had his dick cut off one night while walking across Tai-Da campus. Then there were the two teachers riding bicycles down in Taichung or Tainan (one of these cities) who were attacked by a gang.......one had his arm cut off. Or the Swedish engineer that had been in Taiwan for three hours. A Taiwanese company picked him up at the airport and they went to a pub down in Taichung/Tainan. Some unknown came running in the pub and caved in his skull with a piece of steel or something and ran out. The Swede was brain damaged. No one was ever caught and the Swede had never even been in Taiwan before.

This has been going on for a long time. Back in 1986 there was a Taiwanese guy who had just come back from grad school in the US. He was walking around in Taipei for several weeks attacking random westerners with bricks and rocks. He went up the the coffeeshop at the Sheraton on Zhongxiao and threw a brick thru the window at an American businessman who was injured pretty badly. In this instance, the Taiwanese was caught. But this was an exception.

Zain is such a big issue for them because he made them lose big time face and made them look incompetent.

It would be nice if they practiced even-handed enforcement regardless of national background, economic status, and other factors. Wow, am I sounding liberal or what? :twocents:

Regarding the difference of opinions in the foreign community and loyalty shown to Dean: I would hope that no one website (this one or the other one) would claim to solely speak for the foreign community. People that have been loyal to Zain (despite being convicted of a crime that resulted in a loss of life) were often not as compassionate over foreigners being found guilty for drug charges (e.g. Forand case). That's fine: I would argue that emotion and personal connections are the largest factors here. Despite my less than stellar faith in Taiwan's legal system, I still think Dean's behaviour in leaving is hard to defend. I can understand it, am entertained at the drama/his ability to trick customs officials, but also know that was what was supposedly "taking the easy way out," is actually turning out to be very complicated and drawn out.

[DIVEA DIVYA NARANG]

Maoman you've been vociferous in saying that you are not friends with him, but your actions speak louder and to the contrary. Giving him the chance to clarify his name here and on the flob, defending him by saying the court hearings were shite and going to court hearings etc.

Well the point is that Taiwan is a small place. It's expat community smaller. Everyone knows everyone or everyone knows someone who knows everyone, hence people are excited. Jimi can befriend an alleged killer on FB to be close to the action, you go to court hearing because he is NOT your friend and Toasty cries hoarse because it is captivating. Let's get over the 'WHY ARE YOU INTERESTED' BS, and discuss the case according what we think we know and what we don't know, ad nauseum.

And what is the problem that mods have? Flame, delete, and temp what you guys don't like, otherwise think of it as clicks and traffic, no?

While I'm at it, the ONE truly stupid thing Zain did (after trying to dispose the car, run away etc.) was post here after fleeing. Post on the TEASE. It wasn't a wise move and you're right Anthony you are not his friend because no friend would have allowed that.

[BLACKCRUSADER]

Mr He » Mon Jun 23, 2014 09:36

maoman wrote: I'll bite. Please point out ZD's mindless followers on taiwanease, with a link to specific posts, please.

But Taiwanease was not existing back when the Zain Dean controversy was at its fullest. Forumosa.com which you were the admin of back then had all the lies and innuendo served up, this little corner of the internet would not have that much, a fact I take that you are well aware of.

maoman wrote:
I've never claimed to be a friend of ZDs, and I have no comment (and never did) on his guilt or innocence. Having attended two of his court appearances, I stated, and still believe, that his trial was seriously flawed. Can you concede the possibility, just the possibility, that ZD is guilty as sin AND the legal system is imperfect?

Show me a perfect legal system and I will show you a fantasy. I have been a party in court cases here, they are messy, imperfect, however the judges seem to get things right most of the time. Omnilaquous as a former barrister posted somewhere else regarding his case, and basically, Zain's case had one fatal flaw, you would need to disbelieve everything brought by the prosecution and buy into the argument that this is a politically and racially motivated case, before you can even start to believe his version of events. You know the timeline for that fateful night, and making a convincing case for his innocence would on that basis alone be hard.

maoman wrote: I see far more mindlessness coming from people who have very little knowledge of the case, never attended even one court appearance, yet are more than happy to speculate as to what happened and parrot other uninformed opinions. How many court appearances did you attend, just out of curiosity? You weren't present at any of the ones I witnessed.

And why should I go. I am no legal expert, my command of legal Chinese is not perfect, so I would have left without much more of an informed opinion I would think. Unless your understanding of legal Chinese is drastically better than mine, I would guess that the same is the case for you. Mind you - I have a Master's degree in Chinese, and have lived and worked here for 15 years mainly in a Chinese language environment.

That said, that it was not a miscarriage of justice is a fact established by the Scottish court's assessment of the Taiwanese court's handling of the case. They examined the claims of media interference, police corruption, and errors committed by the judiciary. All claims made by Zain Dean's lawyers, which was dismissed point by point. Each point by Zain Dean's lawyers was addressed. The Scottish judge admonished Zain Dean's lawyer for claiming alleged corruption with the police dealing with Zain Dean's case. When the lawyer was asked to provide evidence of the alleged corruption, he was unable to provide one iota of evidence.

Even the Taiwan court's transcripts were examined by the Scottish court.

Summing up, you are plain wrong on this point.

maoman wrote: And your lousy attempt to besmirch jp, saying he is ZD's "friend" would be laughable if it weren't so mean-spirited. I don't think they've ever even set foot in the same room.

Lousy? I have no need to besmirch Jimi Presley, his trolling has done that so better than I will ever achieve. The personal attacks I am the receiving end of just by asking why people are silent might just explain why I only post here once a month on average, if I am to address JP's trolling directly. I consider personal attacks a weak substitute for actually discussing the case, which is why I personally refrain from attacking people directly.

Seriously. You rock up once a month or so, making zero contribution to the site, apart from whining gleefully about something that is UTTERLY unimportant. Get a hobby, dude. :twocents:

Yes it is evident Maoman likes to let his troll attack dog marc feltham do the trolling.

Bunks » Mon Jun 23, 2014 14:28

maoman wrote: Can you concede the possibility, just the possibility, that ZD is guilty as sin AND the legal system is imperfect?

So are you saying that while the court system did indeed find a guilty man guilty, what we should focus on are the inaccurate ways in which it came to that decision? That is is futile to discuss his guilt based on his own testimony and we should discuss the court process instead?

Also, general question, was he re-tried in Scotland or were the court asked to consider the reasons why Zain felt his original sentence, and subsequent re-sentencing were unfair? That would be a useful thing to consider.


Jimi, bet you are glad you tried to supress further talk of this matter. You done a big whoopsie there!

Yes Bunks many of us have conceded that Zain Dean is guilty but Tony and his friends always want to claim there should be reasons their guilty friend shouldn't have to pay for his crimes.

[JIMIPRESLEY]

jimipresley » Tue Jun 24, 2014 00:29
As others have correctly pointed out, this was a trial by media: "waiguoren waiguoren waiguoren Pakistani India Blackie", courtesy of The Apple Daily and its affiliate television channels. Appealing to the lowest, base, racist emotions of people that those tabloids cater to is going to put immense pressure on the police and the general judicial system. And that's wrong.

For the record, I personally think he's guilty. There you go. Run with it.

I just don't get the glee and joy that waiguoren waiguoren waiguoren get from this debacle. I think it's sanctimonious glass houses stuff. :idunno:

link wrote: Mocking Mr. He for "frien"? Really, Jimi...that's just sad.

Agreed. That was stupid, mean-spirited and childish. I apologize.

[serial killer on parole]

jimipresley » Tue Jun 24, 2014 00:29
As others have correctly pointed out, this was a trial by media: "waiguoren waiguoren waiguoren Pakistani India Blackie", courtesy of The Apple Daily and its affiliate television channels. Appealing to the lowest, base, racist emotions of people that those tabloids cater to is going to put immense pressure on the police and the general judicial system. And that's wrong.

For the record, I personally think he's guilty. There you go. Run with it.

I just don't get the glee and joy that waiguoren waiguoren waiguoren get from this debacle. I think it's sanctimonious glass houses stuff. :idunno:

link wrote: Mocking Mr. He for "frien"? Really, Jimi...that's just sad.

Agreed. That was stupid, mean-spirited and childish. I apologize.

What media called ZD a Pakistani India Blackie. Show the links. Even the UK media referred to ZD as a UK Citizen who is ethnicically Indian. There is nothing wrong with that.
It also played no part in ZD's trial. You and your friends who claim that the video was tampered with ( complete lies ) or the police were corrupt and were in cahoots with the KTV owners ( complete lies ) throw anything you can to try and take away the fact that ZD killed a man, then leaves others to do jail time so he can flee justice.

Even the UK courts have examined the trials ZD had and found nothing amiss. That's right a UK High Court Trial Judge examined ZD's claims one by one and all have been found lacking of any credibility. But hey, lets have a known heroin addict and other drugs abuser and alocoholic, stand up and act as a character witness for ZD. I am sure you will impress the courts.

ZD was well known for drink driving in Taiwan by his friends. None of them did anything to stop him.

[MAOMAN]

engerim wrote: Has Zain ever shown any remorse? I'm not aware of it.

If one is going to be pleading "not guilty", wouldn't an expression of remorse be counter-productive?

Remorse is an emotional expression of personal regret felt by a person after they have committed an act which they deem to be shameful, hurtful, or violent.

I believe he expressed sadness over the man's death, and sorrow that his car was the cause of the accident. I don't remember where I read that, though. Or maybe I saw it in the news? Anyway, I'm not sure, but I think he said something to that effect.

[VAIN DEAN]

engerim wrote: Has Zain ever shown any remorse? I'm not aware of it.

If one is going to be pleading "not guilty", wouldn't an expression of remorse be counter-productive?

Remorse is an emotional expression of personal regret felt by a person after they have committed an act which they deem to be shameful, hurtful, or violent.

I believe he expressed sadness over the man's death, and sorrow that his car was the cause of the accident. I don't remember where I read that, though. Or maybe I saw it in the news? Anyway, I'm not sure, but I think he said something to that effect.

I never apologized for anything at all. Why should I? I was advised by my spin doctors in Taiwan not to apologize.